Attending to the Heart
Helen Thorne-Allenson (00:01.698)
Welcome to episode one of BCUK's To The Heart podcast series. My name is Helen Thorne-Allenson and today we are going to be looking at the topic of attending To The Heart. And with me, I have my colleagues, Steve Midgley and Andrew Collins. For those of us listening who don't know you, Steve, Angie, would you like to introduce yourselves?
Steve Midgley (00:25.098)
I'd glad to do that. Lovely to be on the podcast, Helen. I work as the Executive Director of Biblical Counselling UK, which I've been doing full-time for four years now, but previously was a pastor of a church in Cambridge for nearly 20 years.
Andrew Collins (00:44.293)
And yes, Helen also really delighted to be here. Andrew Collins, I am the director of counseling ministry for BCUK. But I've spent most of my career really as a psychiatrist working in the NHS up until a couple of years ago.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (01:03.47)
Great, well, very much looking forward to our conversation today. And we're going to be conversing around the topic of the heart. That's what the whole of this podcast series is. So it's probably worth our starting with the question, well, what is the heart? In sort of interpersonal ministry, in biblical counseling circles, when we talk about the heart, what do we actually mean?
Andrew Collins (01:25.375)
Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's the right place to start, isn't it? A good question. And I think it's important because I think in biblical counseling, we do use the term heart in a kind of a unique way in one sense. Often when we think about the heart, we think of it in terms of something like the soul or the spirit of man.
because the Bible uses those terms interchangeably. And so we kind of think of it as a kind of a location. We think of, you know, we've got a body, I've got a heart, and the heart is that sort of inner man, that immaterial part of us. But actually, as well as that, within biblical counselling, we think of the heart in very relational terms. The part of us that relates to God.
And it's interesting, think whenever you look in scripture, you can see that actually quite early on in the Bible, Genesis 6, God looks at man, sees that the thoughts and intentions of his heart are evil. Of course, that evil is in relation to God, so the heart relating to God in an evil way. And then one of the next places we see the heart mentioned is actually just a bit further in Deuteronomy 6.
famous words, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, your soul, mind and strength. So again, you see that very relational aspect of the heart and that's the primary way that we think about it in biblical counselling.
Steve Midgley (03:06.45)
I love the way it coming at the idea of the heart as a sort of the source of our allegiances and our commitments. It's the bitterness with which we say I'm for that. I think actually, you know, we kind of get that because that's used in our contemporary language. You you would say, I don't think her heart's really in that or he's got a big heart for that. And I think that, you know, just in colloquial terms.
That captures for me, this is what really matters to me. And I think that's where I then go to say the heart is the bit of us with which we worship. We give ultimate value to something.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (03:49.144)
Well, it is something we talk about a huge amount and our heart is so important when it comes to our relationship with the Lord, indeed with our relationship to others and many other things besides. But actually, in the world of biblical counselling, I'm not sure the heart has always been the thing that we've talked about. Well, we certainly haven't talked about it quite that much as I sort of occasionally dip into sort of the 1970s material, stuff written by Jay Adams and things like that.
I don't see the hearts mentioned that much. Is that fair? And if so, how has it grown that we've started talking about the heart as much as we have?
Steve Midgley (04:28.458)
Yeah, I think it is fair. it's interesting that people maybe listening to the podcast don't appreciate that the biblical counselling movement has a kind of a more immediate history. In a one sense, biblical counselling is ancient. It's pastoral ministry, care of the soul that has existed throughout all of Christian history. But there is this more specific sort of 60 years or so.
of a new iteration of this kind of approach. And as you say Helen, that sort of kicked off in the 70s. yes, Jay Adams, who was in many ways the first writer in this little period of history, was very nervous about the heart and felt that he couldn't see the heart.
He could see what people did, he could hear what people said and those external things he felt confident of. And so he wanted to engage his approach to ministry with others on that basis. The heart he thought was invisible and I guess he would have had in mind, know, Jeremiah 17.9, know, the heart is deceitful above all things who can understand it. You know, well, if that's the case, best leave, leave well alone.
Let me just focus on externals which I can see and be definite about. That was his approach.
Andrew Collins (06:00.713)
Yeah, yeah, helpful to have that background, Steve. And yet then it seems that as sort of time went on, the movement began to notice the need to look a bit more beneath the surface, a bit more towards motivation. What is it that really drives us? And again, you know, we think of the Proverbs.
I forget the exact reference here, but the heart of man is like deep waters. A man of understanding will draw it out, which seems to capture that there are depths to the heart. There can be a certain unknowability, back to Jeremiah 17, but yet there can be some depths that we can draw out as we grow in understanding. And that kind of led on, I think, then to beginning to see then the heart.
in this very relational category, as Steve said, of our allegiances, our loves. Those are the things that motivate us. So yeah, helpful just to have that whole kind of historical background just in mind as we think about the heart.
Steve Midgley (07:16.95)
I love the opportunity to pretend that I instantly remembered the proverbs verse that you couldn't remember. But I just quickly looked it up. Proverbs 25. Yeah, the purpose of the person's heart are deep waters, but one who has inside draws an out. Because I think that's a really valuable verse.
Andrew Collins (07:36.033)
thought you were using your cheat notes there, Steve.
Steve Midgley (07:38.238)
Yeah, yeah, I was.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (07:40.698)
a little glimpse into our hearts as you listen to us there. Let me push a little bit deeper into that because we have seen in the biblical counselling world this gradual growth from a larger focus on externals through to a much bigger focus on the heart. But as we look around the wider evangelical world today there will still be some people that say let's not spend time looking at the heart.
Let's look at those externals, the observables. And they might draw on verses that say things like, you know, by their fruits, you will know them. It is what you see that tells you about a person. What are some of the pros and cons maybe of focusing on behaviour alone?
Andrew Collins (08:27.561)
Yeah, I think that's really wise. And I think the nice thing about that too is that it sort of, it reminds us that there was an importance to where biblical counseling even began with the focus on behavior. And we do want to dismiss that, you know, just by focusing on motivation. And after all, Paul says in Ephesians, I better make sure I get my quote right here. Steve will come in with the reference. But
that we were created for created for good works. Our works are important. Works that are beautiful and are good are important. We will be judged by our behaviors. Again, Paul makes that clear in Romans. And as the passage you mentioned, Helen, the question, know, states, our behaviors do reveal something.
about us. We are known by our fruits. The fruit of our behaviour reveals something about the root, about the motivation. So those are a few, I think, things that are important that come to mind.
Steve Midgley (09:45.598)
Yeah, I found myself thinking in relation to this, Helen, that the, you you think about James and his sort of connection between faith and works. You you have faith, I have works, you you show me your faith by your works, you know, I want to see that this actually does something. And I think that is, you that is important to be clear about, that of course, behaviour really matters.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (10:19.5)
It does really matter. And we certainly as an organisation, as a network, we don't want to be people that ignore behaviour and just become very sort of introspective and looking at our hearts. But there are biblical calls to look at the hearts. There are benefits of looking at the heart. And I'm wondering if we can explore what some of those might be.
Andrew Collins (10:44.009)
Yeah, I I think to come back to Steve's, you know, helpful comment at the beginning just about the heart being the place of our loves, our hates, our fears, our allegiances. Essentially, we want to get to that level of understanding ourselves and understanding those that we walk with.
because it's at that level that we begin to move into how we are relating to God. That level of what am I worshipping? What am I valuing? What am I wanting? What am I fearing? Who or what am I loving? And of course, all of those
David Powlison loved to talk about the active verbs of the heart. And it's such a helpful little comment because it's those verbs which lead us to think, how am I relating to God or to some replacement of God? What am I loving? What am I fearing? And so forth. So really, we are then getting right down to those very most fundamental things that motivate us.
and it began to really probe our spiritual life.
Steve Midgley (12:13.162)
I would echo all of that and add to it.
Some sort of notion, Helen, of integrity, of consistency, of a person who is kind of, in whom things align. I'm struck by those verses in James which talk about double-mindedness. James seems to be drawing out the idea of an inconsistency within a person, things not matching up, counter pulls and tugs.
picture of somebody where what they love, what they are committed to, and the way in which they therefore behave all fit together. I think we know that that is to be much desired. We aspire to that kind of integrity. the contrast of that clearly is the notion of hypocrisy, where the
the way in which we are speaking isn't matched by the things that we do. And we all find that deeply disturbing, either when we see it in ourselves or when we see it in other people. It's a big, well, I mean, it's rightly identified as one of the things that people find most upsetting about, you know, Christian hypocrisy. You know, here we are talking about all these things and they're not matched by them.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (13:55.18)
Let's build a bit of a biblical case for that. I think, know, instinctually, we all know that actually if someone is doing something, even doing good things, but their heart is doing something very different, we recall from that, don't we? We pick up on it and we go, that is not right. That is not what I'm wanting for the people in my church. It's not even what I'm wanting for the person down my street. We do want there to be that integrity, that wholeness, as opposed to a of a fragmented self.
But let's just look a little bit more about some of the passages that can show us the importance of that or maybe the dangers of that when it goes astray.
Andrew Collins (14:34.259)
Yeah, I I, I, I think back to maybe early in Proverbs, guard your heart with all diligence for out of it are the wellsprings of life. In a sense, they are the call to watch over, guard, be careful with your heart, because as we've been really, you know,
noticing in this conversation out of the heart life springs. Your whole way of living, in a sense, springs from this heart of allegiances. And I guess, you know, from there, again, maybe just sitting with the Old Testament, when we think of the heart as that kind of part of us that relates to God, it suddenly, I guess, springs open the hold of, for example, the Book of Psalms.
which in a sense is a book largely about that vertical relationship. And in a sense, although the heart may not always be explicitly referenced, the whole Godward kind of direction of the Psalms and pouring out of the heart in the Psalms, in a sense, it's all about the heart really, in a way. So those are maybe just a few starters there as we think about it.
Steve Midgley (16:01.694)
Which tees me up nicely, Andrew, to launch us into the New Testament. Jesus couldn't be clearer about his resistance to and dismay at the hypocrisy. And that particularly comes out in his engagement with the Pharisees. And so you think about Matthew 6 in the Sermon on the Mount.
where Jesus takes through, walks through the classic marks of Jewish piety, of giving alms, fasting and prayer, and exposes the, you know, that if it is just external, if it is just the show, and the heart is not consistent with the show, then they've had their reward in full.
They've done it, as it were, for the gaze of others and there is no spiritual merit to it at all. And then you go to the other end of Matthew's Gospel and you get similar material in Matthew 23 where Jesus is working with the idea of, well, it's the chapter of all the woes against the Pharisees. Woe to you, whitewashed tombs. And again, the picture is of an external neatness, tidiness.
respectability which isn't matched by what is there on the inside. And he is, Jesus is just, he couldn't be stronger in his critique in that section of Matthew's Gospel. It really is something to be dreaded.
Andrew Collins (17:46.335)
Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? think it's one of them. And when you begin to kind of notice the heart in these places, it almost becomes then one of those categories that you just begin to notice it everywhere. I think once you begin to see it in one place and begin to kind of join the dots, it then kind of springs up, you know, on every page almost.
Steve Midgley (18:05.704)
Yeah, and your point about the heart being relational. I was struck by this. I just read a couple of verses from 2 Corinthians 6, where Paul says to the church in Corinth, we've spoken freely to you Corinthians and open wide our hearts to you. We're not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us. As a fair exchange, I speak to you as my children. Open wide your hearts also. Isn't that lovely picture?
takes us right back to what you were saying earlier on Andrew, the heart being, the place of relational engagement. It's with our hearts that we connect with other people and Paul upset because this church is not allowing him to engage with them because they're keeping their hearts from him.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (18:59.306)
if that links also a little bit with how we see Paul interacting with the church in Thessalonica, where he writes, he doesn't just share the gospel with them, he shares his life as well. And it is because he shares his life with them that he's able to of rebuff all these false teachers and saying horrible things about Paul, untrue things about Paul, and he can say to the church, you know those things are not true because you have seen me and you've seen all of me, you haven't just seen shiny preacher me.
you've actually seen my life in its entirety. And that has brought Paul's integrity to the fore and has actually been a very strong protective for the church that they won't get sucked into false teaching as well.
Steve Midgley (19:42.878)
Yeah, and I'm sure you're gonna, I mean, before we finish, I'm sure we'll end up in this direction and you're gonna take us there, Helen, but it ties in the question of the place of the emotions in the Christian life. Because in that, in his engagement with the Thessalonica, Thessalonian church, get my words right, with the Thessalonian church there, he is speaking very emotionally. He is speaking very personally with passion and it raises questions for us, but actually.
particularly for somebody like me who comes from this classically reserved British culture, what is the place of the emotions both in the Christian life and in pastoral ministry?
Helen Thorne-Allenson (20:27.8)
Why don't we go there now? The topic is ripe for exploration. If we are to know someone's heart, what does that mean about us knowing their emotions? What does that mean about us sharing our emotions appropriately before the Lord?
Steve Midgley (20:43.24)
I think means everything. think it has to be part of the way in which... What's Winston Smith's phrase that I often use, that emotions are the currency of human engagement. This is what we use in order to make emotional connections with other people.
I think we see that expressed through much of Paul's engagement in the epistles.
Andrew Collins (21:21.097)
Yeah. And I think too that, you know, picking up just on emotions kind of expressing what the heart's valuing, wanting, fearing, loving and so forth. And I think it's true also at a personal level. For example, I think of if I experience the emotion of anxiety, which I do frequently enough, it
thinking in this way and this understanding of the heart, it can lead me then to begin to ask, what am I, what am I fearing? What am I really fearing in this situation? What is it that I'm I'm not wanting? And I I remember as I began to really engage with biblical counselling and this whole kind of category of the heart began to kind of open up.
I remember just getting a window into my fear of man. I think it's one of those areas that for I guess it's a bit of a light bulb moment for a lot of us, you know, whenever we begin to think about the heart. But I remember thinking, you know, when I get anxious, maybe with people or I get anxious if I'm speaking or something like that, you know, I just was getting this light shone into a corner that
I hadn't seen before, you know, what am I really fearing here? And I began to wrestle with, I'm really fearing what people are thinking about me. I'm really fearing, you know, what their perceptions of me and so forth.
Steve Midgley (23:02.962)
And that principle, of wherever we are detecting strong emotions in ourselves, we're close to tapping into something significant in our hearts, I think is tremendously valuable principle, both in our own reflection on our own walk with the Lord and relationship with others, but also for those of us involved in interpersonal ministry, as we try and help another person to understand the workings of their heart.
It's where there are those strong feelings because they tap into something that really matters to me.
So I think that's a valuable principle.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (23:45.814)
I think you touched on that in your book on anger, didn't you, Steve, where you were talking about the feeling of anger being quite a big emotion, but actually it can cover over a lot of things and it shows us what we're against. It shows us what we really don't want. And that's often where a lot of our anger can stem from.
Steve Midgley (24:07.774)
Yes, and I also find myself thinking that the exploration of the heart at the point that we are puzzled and confused is really important and maybe that taps into the idea of, I don't understand why I'm so angry about this. You know, this really presses my buttons. You know, it's the sort of phrase that we might use of ourselves at times. And the...
working out, well, what is it that matters so much to me that is being stirred at this point? And when we find ourselves kind of stuck with a habit that won't change, stuck with a pattern of relating to somebody that kind of trips us up over and over again, stuck with this stir of emotion that overwhelms us,
to move from there to say, what is going on here? There's something that I'm blind to, and this takes us right back to what we talking about at the beginning. Why does the heart matter so much? Because there are things that we're blind to. There things that we don't get about ourselves, about what's going on. And unless we can sort of, with the help of others, and most fundamentally with the help of the Lord, begin to grasp what's going on in my heart.
We remain stuck and we remain going on being troubled by powerful emotions that just seem to sweep over us and take control of us and cause us to say and do things that hurt others that matter to us.
Andrew Collins (25:48.577)
Yeah, it's where that kind of classic article by David Powlison on X-Ray questions, I find it so helpful, you know, where it gives us those questions which begin to help us through that kind of analysis, Steve, that you're talking about there. Analysis that we, of course, we want to do before the Lord, we don't want to kind of get stuck within ourselves. you know, asking those questions in those moments where, yeah.
I've got this unexplained kind of emotion or whatever. What am I really wanting? What might I really be fearing? What am I loving? And so forth. Yeah.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (26:29.154)
Well, maybe let's look a little bit at the practicalities of how we do explore our hearts a little bit more. And one place I love to start is Psalm 139. There we have the psalmist asking God to explore him, to let him know if there are any offensive ways within him. And I often start there because I'm not always very good at being attentive to my heart.
I know when other people are irritating me, I know when I'm sad, but I don't always want to look deeper. I guess sometimes I might just be a little bit worried about what I might sign there. Not that in the hands of a loving and kind God there is anything to worry about because there is grace and mercy and abundance. But I often find that just praying that prayer, search me, know me Lord, not that he doesn't already, but so he can show me what's going on in my heart is a
a great place to start. But where do you guys start? How do you explore your own heart?
Steve Midgley (27:32.682)
There's something just about making time for this, isn't there? It's not something that you can squeeze into a short amount of time. And where we are busy, busy, busy, where we are constantly on the receiving end of our smartphones and our social media and all the rest and stuff is coming at us all the time, it's just too noisy. There is a need to create space.
And I think, for me, part of that is trying to work hard to carve out a significant chunk of time to be with the Lord each day so that that is unbrushed time when I sit without any other distractions, when I speak to him about things that are troubling me. And often it is in that context.
that things that I wasn't aware of that are troubling me or important to me begin to emerge. Journaling goes a bit with that. don't journal all the time, but intermittently the physical act of slowing down enough to write out longhand on a piece of paper.
my thoughts and my feelings about a situation often reveals things that I had not previously been aware of. that's certainly been something that's helped me in the past.
Andrew Collins (29:12.691)
Yeah, I agree. I think definitely the slowing down is so important. I might just also add in conversation with another person. I know for me, know, things over with my wife will often just allow a gaze into my own kind of motives and what's going on underneath it.
that I can often be blind to. And I guess that's true just in generally in our helping conversations, isn't it? In our counselling conversations that, know, we can part of the purpose of that is that we will get to know one another's hearts and we will be able to bring those before the Lord and at the light of his word, now show it on the
Steve Midgley (30:04.97)
And it's not rocket science, either is it, Andrew? I think that's the thing I delight about interpersonal ministry is that it's not super complicated. And we've all had the experience either on the receiving end or as the person's asking questions, where just getting somebody to talk and as they describe a situation or as they describe what's happened, things emerged that they had not realized because simply
taking it from inside their head to putting it outside their head so they have to turn it into words. Something happens in that and they begin to notice things they hadn't noticed before.
Andrew Collins (30:47.711)
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where that kind of little understanding of the heart as, you know, it's the place where we hold those things that matter most to us, you even in that simple way. And so someone, as you say, Steve begins to talk, what does begin to emerge is what's important, what matters, what's on their heart. You know, often that's the, you know, out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.
what Jesus says. So I think you're right, and it's not rocket science, it happens in just about every conversation we have.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (31:24.046)
And I think just being alert to our hearts in the day to day can be helpful as well. Just occasionally, a phrase pops out, an emotion pops out and you sit there and go, where did that come from? I wasn't expecting to respond in that way at all. And it is just taking those moments to the Lord, isn't it? Or taking those moments to someone that you trust and talking them over that can be so elucidating.
because they're like little moments where your heart is popping up and going hello and here's something to attend to and of course we can just squash it down again and ignore it and sometimes we do but actually if we grasp those moments and explore a little more deeply
Steve Midgley (32:07.188)
Do you remember Helen, I think again it was a David Powlison thing in that foundational course Dynamics of Biblical Change where he gives the analogy of a video camera, know, sort take this little vignette, this little snapshot of life and it's as if you've filmed it on your video camera and now we're going to slow the camera right down and we're going to play it back frame by frame by frame and I think I've always found that an incredibly helpful way of doing exactly
you're describing there is sort of pausing, slowing down enough to say what was going on there, you what did happen and often that is enough for things to emerge that were previously hidden.
Andrew Collins (32:55.263)
Yeah, I agree. So helpful. must say, you know, helpful to do an everyday conversation, also really helpful to do that. And counselling conversations, to be honest, are really, really useful.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (33:09.61)
some of the benefits of this, you know, let's just imagine that, you know, one of us has had a really bad day, we've been grumpy, we've said some words that we regret, it'd be very easy for us to go, it's because that other person irritated us and there'll be an element of truth in that, you know, sometimes people do say things to us that are really hard, but actually if we are attentive, if we do take our hearts to the Lord,
If we do have those helping conversations with someone that we trust, if there is a sort of an exploration there, where does that lead us? What's the good fruit that potentially at least can come out at the other end?
Andrew Collins (33:54.815)
Yeah, really helpful question. I mean, I'm going to have to think so hard here to think of a situation where I've been grumpy. Now, when could that be? Helen, that was a very loud laugh. I think you're absolutely, absolutely right. And I mean, it's a brilliant example because, of course, none of us wants to see our grumpiness and we can be so blind to our own
kind of irritations and irritability. And yet, where it begins to lead us is a place where we can see the Lord in a new way over the situation that has been causing us, that has been causing frustration. Or where we see him as judge in a situation where we've been placing ourselves as judge in the situation.
And ultimately to a place where sadly in my life, not frequently enough, but where we might go to someone and say, you know, especially those that are nearest to us, I'm so sorry that I was irritable earlier. I'm so sorry that I was grumpy. Forgive me. Of course, you know, that just begins to lead into sweeter, better relationships.
Steve Midgley (35:24.284)
And it's also taking, again, all of these things connect together and it takes us back to the early part of our conversation about the external and the internal. If all I managed to do is acknowledge that I was grumpy and short with somebody and I apologize to them for that and maybe I turn to God and I say, God, I'm sorry that I was grumpy and sharp and spoke too harshly.
please forgive me and I say that to the Lord as well. I mean, all of that's good. But, you know, we sense that there is a different measure of that when I realized that the reason that I was sharp and grumpy is because people weren't paying enough attention to me. And I felt as I was being neglected or people were speaking over me. And because my great ambition is to be the center of attention all the time and I want people to admire.
the excellences that I believe I have. Then we've got something very different to speak to the Lord about. God, this is an offence to you that my reputation, that the prominence that I have matters more to me than honouring you. Now we're a different, we're apologising for something.
at a much more significant, we're repenting of something of much greater significance. And so, why does attending to the heart matter so much? Well, attending to the heart matters so much because repentance matters so much, growth in godliness matters so much. How will we grow to be more like Christ if we are not changing into his character? And that involves both identifying and then repenting of attitudes of the heart.
Andrew Collins (37:19.211)
Brilliant, Steve, I love that. And you know what, as you were talking there, I'm thinking as well, that that leads us to see the work of Christ for us in a deeper, richer way as well. He has died for even this depth of wrong motivation that can exist in my heart. And also it leads us to see His righteousness for us in richer ways that actually
You know, I have his righteousness right down to the very depths of that kind of motivation. So all of it, I think, really leads us to see even more of the glory in the work of Christ for us as well. Yeah, really helpful. Thank you.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (38:03.736)
that's so important to remember, isn't it, for anyone that's feeling a little bit nervous about looking at their heart or helping somebody else look at their heart because they're worried that maybe God will be grumpy with them or that, you know, it'll be really shameful and others in the church will look at their heart and go, my goodness, me, how dark and horrible is your heart? Mine's much cleaner than this. But actually, when we go on that journey before the Lord, who is merciful and kind with brothers and sisters who speak words of grace and hope.
where compassion and wisdom is the context in which we are having these conversations. Actually looking at our hearts, even though it might actually be quite sobering at times because what is there is not God-honouring. Actually, we end up in a place of seeing a deeper, richer view of His mercy, His compassion, His forgiveness, His justification, His ability to change us, that the hope that lies before us.
Actually, there is a richness there, isn't there? It's not an introspection, it's glorious.
Steve Midgley (39:05.171)
And the more we do of it in our churches, the richer it becomes. It does seem to me it is about steadily shifting the culture of our churches that means talking about these kind of battles and struggles, speaking about the reality of the ugliness of our hearts.
creates the context where grace is received and absorbed and enjoyed more and more. And the contrast of a church that, you know, presents a sort of a sense of respectability and superficial righteousness presses down and sort of makes it very difficult for people to acknowledge their struggles, to admit their sin. And that means that they receive and experience less grace.
Andrew Collins (40:08.545)
Yeah, you know, Steve, what you're saying there, I would say that, you know, in our little small group Bible study we have in church, we are in the evenings, we're still growing a lot in this, but in the evenings where before the Lord's word, we've begun to share a little bit about our hearts and how the word is applying to our hearts and begun to see that it leads to
a richer time together when we experience that, you know, we experience it when we pray together afterwards as well. So, yeah, just to say that, you know, as you were speaking there, I was thinking, yeah, I on those times when we see that happening, for example, in our small bit Bible study, it definitely leads to to richer times of worship.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (41:01.194)
you. And that of course is what we're to be looking at in episode two, when we're going to be going on to look at how we listen to the heart alongside one another. Steve, Angie, thank you so much for the wisdom that you shared today. Any final thoughts for us as we bring this topic of attending to the heart to a close? I love the way that we have shown that this is not about navel gazing, this is not about becoming inward looking, this is all about
looking up to Jesus for the hope, the understanding, the richness, the transformation that he longs for us to know. But anything, any final thoughts to leave us with?
Steve Midgley (41:43.56)
Yeah, I think where you've just gone there was the chimes in with the final thought I had in mind, which is that in resistance to the idea that there's something introspective and very self-indulgent about gazing the heart, I want to say no, there's not. Rightly understood, this is about bringing glory to God, because I learn how to...
repent as I should, how to connect with the Lord as I should in ways that honor him and give him glory. And also it's good for others because it means I begin to become more of the person that God wants me to be and I know how to love others better. know, it's not, know, rightly understood this isn't about me and me getting all preoccupied with my heart. It's about bringing glory to the Lord and loving.
and loving my neighbours as myself.
Andrew Collins (42:43.518)
Amen to that.
Helen Thorne-Allenson (42:46.794)
Andrew, why don't you pray for us?
Andrew Collins (42:52.651)
Father, even as we have reflected again together in this conversation about the heart. We're thankful that your word does expose and reveal our hearts. We thank you that in doing that, it then leads us further. It leads us further to see the Lord Jesus and all that he has done for us.
taking upon himself the depth of the thoughts and intentions and wickedness of our hearts. Paying the price for that, taking our place and indeed then giving us a righteousness that is not merely external, a righteousness that reaches down into the very depths of our motivation that is full and complete, his perfect.
righteousness, also that, as we've just been reminded, we together would grow in loving you wholeheartedly with heart and mind and soul and strength, and that we would, out of that love for you, grow in loving one another. Lord, it's our prayer for one another in this conversation. It's our prayer for all who might be listening to this, that you will grow your church in these good things. For the glory
of our wonderful Savior, we pray. Amen.
